The Leatherbound Books – Jackie, Eric, and Dan

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Contact Details

Interview Details

Date: Saturday May 30th 2026
Location: Uncommon Coffee in Essex VT
Length: 01:02:32
Episode Number: 70
Short Link: vermonttalks.com/70

Transcript

Becca: What’s new 802? I’m Becca Hammond and you’re listening to Vermont Talks. Vermont Talks may include graphic or explicit content. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome all, it is the 70th interview of Vermont Talks and I’m here today with the leatherbound books which is Becky, Eric and Dan.

Welcome all. And the leatherbound books is a Burlington based trio playing hop-tinged indie rock which and I’m quoting from their page, music fit for a solo lap at your local roller rink or a ride in the back of a mid 90s station wagon. And their most recent album is Louder and Setter which I feel like should be shouted because it’s all in caps and it was released in 2025. Welcome. Thank you. Three of you. Thank you. Yeah. And I think I forgot to mention that it is the 30th of May today which feels insane. Like half the years already gone. It’s Christmas tomorrow. Oh my God, I love your Christmas song. Okay. I’ve got a fan girl for a second. Oh, I get there. You guys are so fun and calling it 90s music. Some of your vocals and some of the like surfy rock is so 90s-y and I don’t know how to define it exactly but I love it and I love you guys and I’m very, very happy that you came on my show today. So tell me what you each play because I know but please introduce yourselves if you’re just gonna go in a circle or vice versa, whatever way.

Dan: I’m Dan. I’m the drummer in the band. I’ve been playing with the books for quite some time now. I’m not the original drummer. I did have a predecessor before me but I’ve been playing with Eric and Jackie since 2018.

Eric: Has it been that long? It’s been about eight years.

Becca: That’s impressive. Cool.

Eric: Okay. Yeah. I’m Eric and I play the guitar and sing and write some songs.

Jackie: I’m Jackie. I play bass and I sing and every once in a blue moon I’ll write a song. Yeah.

Becca: So when did the band actually start if you joined in 2018? Because that’s a while ago.

Jackie: I think our first full band gig was in January of 2013. I think that was the first Leatherbound Books band show. Yeah.

Eric: I had like the concept of the Leatherbound Books where I played some solo shows with my tunes for like a year, year and a half when I was breaking into the Burlington music scene. And then I remember I think it was my birthday that year that we like put together a radio bean set when it was just the little radio bean. And that was fun. Yeah. I didn’t know it was that long ago.

Becca: 13 years of Leatherbound Books. Oh God. That’s amazing. 13 is my favorite number. Yeah. It’s a good one. Yeah. How many albums I counted and now I’ve forgotten. There’s at least two or three. Yeah.

Jackie: So we have a little EP and then we did an album and then we did an EP and then we did an album and there have been some singles. Yeah. Two albums, two EPs.

Eric: Yes. But this current group has put out two. Yes. Yeah. This current lineup.

Becca: Yeah. It’s very impressive. I. Okay. Love the vibe. I love your merch designs too. You guys do your own merch, right? Am I remembering that correctly?

Eric: We do. We try and do all of our own stuff because we’re poor. So it saves us money. Yeah.

Becca: Every bad.

Eric: Indeed. Indeed. But some bands don’t try and do it even if they fail and that’s what doesn’t stop us. Because even if we fail, we just still put it out and that’s kind of our ethos, I suppose. Yes.

Jackie: For better or worse. Yeah. Our philosophy, our ethos, and then it grew into like a branding strategy where it’s like we do things badly, but that’s like our thing.

Eric: We can sell that maybe sort of.

Jackie: It’s like on purpose that we do make horrible mistakes. So if you like it, you have to be okay with C-Crap.

Becca: Yeah. It’s so real though. It’s like pure indie DIY. It’s the vibe. And it fits so well with the music.

Jackie: Yeah. I mean, Eric does most of the art. He’s a visual artist as well as a musician. So he does most of the designs that we end up putting on the shirts. And my job is to hold the screen steady on the shirt while he squeegees. Right.

Eric: So I’m pretty much. Well, Dan, you got to set press that we use now too because he’s very official. Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie: Our production has grown. Yeah. Not in concert with demand.

Eric: Our half athery has even branched into printing other people’s bad D shirts.

Jackie: Yeah.

Eric: So like, yeah. So are you making the screens?

Becca: Are you buying them or are you doing the like V screen?

Eric: We sure do.

Jackie: We buy the screens. Yeah.

Eric: And then we, we coat them and then we, we expose them and then we pull our hair out because we didn’t get it right. We start all over again. And then, um, yeah, forget to eat lunch and then do a whole batch of shirts. Yeah.

Jackie: Have a crash out. Yeah. A temper tantrum and realize that they actually look fine.

Eric: They look fine. Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Becca: Okay. Screen printing is incredibly hard. That’s like, it really is. That’s one of those things that every time I watch someone do it well, I’m like, Oh, what a, it’s kind of like watching a figure skater at the Olympics or something. We’re like, Oh, so beautiful. Yeah. I, you know, I could do this.

Eric: Yeah. You’re like, Oh, I can spin around four times. That’s easy, but not on ice. I’m like blades that are sharp.

Becca: Exactly. I try and stand on ice.

Jackie: I’m going to die. Well, and similarly, you see these ice skaters and you find out that they have never had a job and that their parents have just been like supporting their dream this entire time. And with screen printing, you watch someone do it incredibly and then, you know, zoom out and they’re in a warehouse devoted to only this. Whereas we’re in our apartment. Yeah. Like, like shimmying sideways in between our bedroom and kitchen.

Eric: Yeah. Stepping over dogs. Yeah.

Jackie: Yeah. Trying desperately not to step on the dogs.

Becca: Okay. So I want to talk about multiple songs. But the one I wanted to reference was, uh, do you call it being good at singing is fucking boring or is there just fucking boring? Yeah, just fucking boring. But it’s with like a V. Yeah.

Eric: It’s very, we tried to do what the kids do where they misspell things. We’re super hip. So, obviously.

Becca: And it was clearly like very, uh, you know, child friendly. Yeah.

Eric: Yeah. We’ve had to play some child friendly gigs. And what do you usually say? I say stupid and boring.

Jackie: Yeah.

Becca: Yeah, that makes sense. That’s one is so much fun. Every time you sing that one, and I see you guys live, I’m just like,

Eric: my favorite part is when Jackie doesn’t remember how to start the song, both on the bass and on the vocals, which she does.

Jackie: And so like, it really drives the point that I don’t need to know what I’m doing to just do it. To have fun.

Becca: That recording came out so well, too.

Jackie: So that was our first time playing it together.

Eric: Yeah. Wow. Like sometimes when we’re recording, we like to just like throw in a random one that we don’t know quite yet. And it’s usually like the most fun recording, you know, because it’s got the energy and we’re not overthinking it, you know, you have to sneak up on it and catch it. That’s kind of that song. Yeah.

Jackie: Dan is incredible at that. Like we can bring a half baked idea, and then Dan will just hit it as hard as he can. And we’re like, oh, this is a real song.

Eric: That’s a take. Yeah. Keep it. Print it.

Dan: Yeah. Eric and Jackie like to keep me on my toes. It’s fun. It’s really fun in that way. We have really fun weird endings, fun parts of songs that aren’t standard by any means. But it’s great because we keep hitting it hard and we keep mixing it up, which is so fun. Yeah.

Becca: It’s such a unique sound that’s of all of the Burlington bands. There’s a lot of very unique people. You guys are like this iconic like in the pillar to really think of ourselves.

Eric: I think it’s really, it’s kind of like talent to make it because you kind of act like you’re, you’re not serious, but you’re so good that I’m like, I don’t know if I believe that you’re not. It’s like you’re extremely talented.

Eric: Well, we’ve, I think we’ve all kind of individually and collectively tried the serious thing to like no avail. So like, we just decided to have fun. And that’s kind of when we got better, I suppose. Or at least from our standpoint, it’s been easier and more kind of essentially us. So we don’t have to be so serious about it. Yeah.

Jackie: If you’re not having fun, yeah. Yeah.

Becca: It works so well. Like, I don’t think you come off as like ill-rehearsed or like not well. Well, we are. Yeah, it’s really fun. It’s very indie icon kind of a kind of a vibe, which is its own thing of itself.

No one’s ever the same, right? When you’re in the indie space. Awesome designs. I love the designs, love the songs. Being good at singing is fun. Boring is like, I feel like it’s an anthem in my heart.

Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I want for that song. Yeah. I want people to hear that and think that it’s funny at first and then be singing to themselves and like maybe have that stupid voice in their head to be like, I shouldn’t be singing because I’m not American Idol quality. And then be like, no, Jackie told me. Yeah. Jackie told me that it’s fucking boring to be that good at singing. I’m gonna sing my freaking heart out. That’s what I’m saying. Yeah. Exactly.

Becca: I feel it. And the like operatic parts. Yeah. Because you’re just having fun with the vocals. It’s so great though. That’s so unique. And you pulled it off so well. Love Values.

Eric: High and low humor at this thing. Yeah.

Becca: I think the other one I wanted to mention, I think it’s your Christmas song. I love that one so much.

Eric: Yeah, we had to record that. We don’t, yeah.

Becca: We did like a country version of it.

Eric: But yeah, that was a lot of wasale that night, I think. I wasn’t quite on it.

Jackie: Yes. Red Wine gets a writing credit.

Eric: Yeah, it sure does. It sure does. It gets quite a bit these days.

Becca: I think you guys play that at Fisher’s birthday party at Radio B.

Eric: And not only was it December. We messed that one up so bad. The reference to your dog. Yes. Yeah.

Becca: So good. Like love that song. That’s it. I love your old album. I would listen to it all the way and like driving over here again. Because I just purely enjoy it.

So if you like Indie Rock, check these guys out honestly. Like, and I don’t say that about every so many times I interview you. I swear.

We’ll just cut that. I’m lucky because I’ve gotten to play out with you guys at least once now with the Bird Herding Hills. It’s fun. I love getting to actually talk with people who are in the scene.

So enjoyable. So let’s talk more about the scene and what you’re up to. Are you guys currently recording? Where did you record your last one? What are what’s the thoughts? What’s the plants?

Jackie: So we record a lot at Dan’s place.

Eric: Yeah. In his basement studio.

Becca: So Indie. Yeah.

Dan: So that’s awesome. Use what you got. Yeah. We’ll get a lot of our bass tracks. So like we’ll do all the drum tracks at my house. We’ll get scratch tracks for guitar, bass, vocals, whatever we need.

So all the foundation work starts there. And then Eric and Jack will take it home, you know, re-record things as necessary, spice it up. And it’s so fun in our recording process. My favorite part is when Eric sends the tracks back. And I hear the song when what Eric was thinking of for the whole time. Because as a trio, we only can do so much as a power trio. And it’s so much fun playing that live.

Yeah. When it’s like simplified and like we’re really hitting it. But hearing all the extra effects and like all the different vocals that Jack is adding on to it, like it sends the song into a whole another universe for me to listen to it. Because like, oh, now I can actually hear what’s going on in everybody’s heads. And so this song then evolves even more from there. So it’s like such a fun process when we start in the very simplistic way of like, we’re learning the song, we’re recording all the bass and all the bass of the songs. And then coming back, it’s like, whoa, the song just totally evolves again, which is so much fun.

Eric: Yeah, we get that we get the like the skeleton, we get the bones good drums and bass. And then I’ll take the tracks and, you know, be able to wake up at like 10am and just in my PJs record until I’m done with the song, which is really nice. Because we’ve tried studio stuff before. And I I find that workflow very kind of constricting when you’re on the clock, you know, and when you know the outcome is like 100 listens in a year, you know, like it’s kind of it’s it’s a lot of pomp and circumstance for a little payoff. Yes, so it has been nice to like, just be able to kind of do it on our time. And to be able to overthink it and just get it out is kind of nice.

Becca: Yeah, because that’s it. If you feel like you have to get a done in six hours, right?

Eric: Because like that’s all the money we got. Yeah, it does end up feeling sti. Yeah, yeah. I feel that I obviously I enjoy recording and audio stuff. Yeah, so so are you doing your mixing too? It’s really awesome that you’re all involved in our process. That makes a lot of sense with your sound, though, like it doesn’t feel

Becca: it doesn’t feel like I’m not watching you on stage kind of like it feels just very natural and just like, yes, this is how these guys are in reality, which I love. I love that personally being able to walk into a band. They’re just like what I was hoping for.

Eric: Nice to hear. I love that. Which either means we stink on the recordings and live. So we’re representative.

Jackie: Consistency is key. You know what you’re gonna get. Exactly. It’s the only thing that matters. It’s not. Oh, no.

Eric: Yeah, I think that is kind of the aesthetic we’re going for. If not on purpose in practice. Because like at the end of the day, we write the song, we record the song and it is the song kind of, you know, and that sort of need to try and like make it more than it is has been really disappointing for me in the past. Yes. Kind of have to play it where it lies. You know, just like with our silk screening or our promo on the internet, it just is what it is.

Jackie: Yeah, you can’t get too precious about it. It’s all kind of milk. Like if you hold on to song it’s too long. They do not get better.

Eric: It doesn’t turn into a fine cheese.

Jackie: No, I do not know how to make cheese. I just yeah, it just gets gross and disappointing and smells bad. Indeed. I do want to say that for for super normal, we went to Sobby Studios for our buddy Eric Segal Sad.

Eric: Where is someone located?

Becca: I don’t think I’ve heard that name. He’s in a holchester? Yes. Yeah, he’s in a holchester. I’ve heard that name before.

Eric: Yeah, cool. Yeah. He does a lot of, I think like commercial kind of stuff, but he also does excellent studio. I played with him in bands before. He did us a solid.

Jackie: Yeah, he’s a great. He’s a great ear and it’s wonderful. I mean, that’s one of the reasons why we like mix ourselves is it’s nice to work with someone who knows you.

Yes. Because there’s a lot of things that get left on said that are just open to misunderstanding as far as like aesthetics and intentions and all of that. And so working with folks that you know who really know you and even if they aren’t the same vibe as you, they like your vibe. We don’t have to all be the same to love and appreciate each other and bring out the best in each other. Well said. Yeah.

Dan: And we got a shout out Ryan over at Robot Dog Studio. Oh my gosh. We went across the lake not too long ago to sing with him. In a similar situation, Ryan, we all know Ryan well. And actually it was our first time recording as the books in this trio with Ryan because we’ve all recorded with Ryan separately in different bands.

Separately in different bands. And it was at least my first time, I think it was also your first time visiting a studio in New York and so seeing his set up there. And for folks that know Ryan, Ryan is probably one of those easy going studio engineers you could ever, ever work. Incredible guy.

And makes you incredibly comfortable. He is yeah, great workflow and gives you the the constructive criticism that you never thought you would need. Yeah. In the right moments.

Yeah. And in kind of the opposite side of the spectrum, like we love doing the DIY stuff. But when you find that engineer or that person in the booth that knows you and like, can vibe with you to get the sound that you’re all looking for, it makes the experience incredibly special.

Eric: Yeah, if we get that big record deal, we’re shooting right over the lake. Absolutely. So Ryan calling. Yeah. Yes. Shout out, Ryan.

Becca: Yes. Yeah. Ryan actually came on the show like five years ago. Super nice guys.

Jackie: So much fun. Incredible. And that’s every bad that has worked with him. Yeah. As nice as things to say about him. Just a giant sweetheart. So yeah, shout out to Brian and his very cool new studio. True. Because I think a lot of people watched him build it too.

Eric: Yeah, definitely.

Becca: Yeah, very cool. Awesome. Awesome. So are you currently recording anything new?

Jackie: Are you working on a? Yes and no. So in the very, very We have concepts. Yeah.

Eric: Maybe. In the very, very real sense of are we in a room with a recording device playing music into that device so that that music is recorded? No. But are we right about to do that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie: So yeah. So we know the songs that we’re going to record next and probably looking at like an October release kind of timeline because we can just get it done. So we haven’t pressed record yet. But we’re going to release an October.

Eric: Yeah, lead time. I think we usually we will track drums and bass. And then within like a week or 10 days, it’s pretty much all done because of the streamline process. Yeah. And then we’ll sit on it and listen to it and you know, maybe maybe think about getting it mastered or just mastered ourselves. Yeah.

Becca: Yeah. If you have the skills to do it.

Eric: We don’t, but we do it anyway.

Becca: I also lack skills, but I keep doing these.

Eric: It hasn’t stopped us yet. Exactly. That is, that’s the big ethos. Yeah.

Jackie: Your interview with Riley covered that which I loved and just like reaffirmed like why Riley is my friend because like don’t let being bad at something stop you from just doing it.

Eric: You’ll get better. Like, but you won’t unless you do it. You can get better if you don’t start off being bad. You got to be okay with that.

Becca: What Jackie said about being precious. Like, yeah, because oh my every artist, I think every musician has got, especially when we’re young, we’re like, it’s got to be the ballad that changes everything’s life.

Eric: The great American novel. Yeah. It’s got to be perfect. And then you stall and you stall. And then it’s milk. Yeah. Yeah. I had a roommate and she was taking pottery classes and the pottery teacher had them like make their big like their first piece. And then when everyone was done with it, she had them smash all of their first pieces. And she was like, if you want to be a potter, you have to get used to that.

Like, you just have to be okay with like putting a lot of work into something. And then it’s absolutely gone. And there isn’t like a similar.

There isn’t a similar way to do that with audio music and stuff. You know what I mean? Like, but having that in mind, it’s a very good way to just not be precious with the things that you do put out.

Becca: That’s an interesting way to think about it. Like every song is just a lump of clay. It could turn into something. It could be the ballad that changes lives. Or it could just be mud.

Eric: Or it can explode after you’ve worked so hard on it in the kiln. Because you left one little bobble in. So like, sorry, start again.

Becca: Right. And the nice thing about clay, that’s a good metaphor because you can turn it into something else. That’s true. Like, oh, well, I didn’t like, like the song is not working, but I’m stealing this line. I like this.

Jackie: That’s going into the next Yeah, it was going to be a vase, but now it’s a mosaic. Yeah.

Becca: Wait, yes. Right metaphor. I like this. Love music. I love the music scene and Vermont and Burley too.

Eric: I think it’s more healthy now than it’s ever been. Like it really is, you know, capital C community. Because we’re having such hardship with finding venues and keeping them open and, you know, just getting people to come out to shows has been tough. Yes. But like, it’s like the inverse. The less people come out to shows, the better the music’s getting. So some day that’s going to like line up. And I hope that’s in the near future. Yeah, help them around. Indeed. Indeed.

Becca: I think so. It’s interesting. Come out to our show, please. Yeah, it’s interesting talking to people and the amount of people who have this like need for like contact with other humans. I think it’s the pandemic. We’re all like, wow, that sucks. Yeah.

Now what? And things are slowly coming back. Things like, like, I don’t know if any of you listened to the Odd Fellows podcast, but they went from five members who are all like 90 years old to 65. And they’re mostly in their 30s and 40s. And like, suddenly this space is just like blowing up because exactly that the world sucks. We all like want to just get together and eat some food together.

Eric: Yeah. Well, there’s no third space. There’s no like, it’s like work and home. Some people work from home. So they don’t even have a second space. Yes. And you know, like venues and music gatherings, that’s a third space. And even that is kind of cost prohibitive to a lot of people these days. So it’s really, it’s we’re desperate. Yeah.

Becca: Desperate for anything. Just a friendly vibe that’s no barrier to entry kind of a thing, which I personally think the local music scene is very like that for the most part. Most bands, I know if you hit them up and we’re like, I want to go to your show, but I don’t have 100%. I got you a ticket on the list.

Eric: Don’t worry about it. We got you. Please let us know. Reach out to the books on our socials. And if you can’t come to a show, we’ll put you on the list. Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie: If that’s the reason I’m holding you back. Yeah. I just not a fluff. I want you there. So whatever’s keeping you from being there, let me know and I’ll do what I can.

Becca: Yeah. Right. We want you to come hang out.

Eric: Yeah. You want to make the effort to leave your apartment? Gosh, please let us know.

Becca: Yeah. You’re a hero. You’re a hero. Coming out with us. Yes. Yes. Community. It’s coming back. I do believe that. And I do think the spaces are coming back. What something I find interesting is the lack of drinking with the younger generation and also watching places like odd fellows have sold out nights. Right. It’s changing this requirement of it needs to be a bar, which is really interesting to me because that vibe has been there for a long time.

If you’re not drinking, what’s the point? Right. But that’s not how a lot of people feel.

And the older I get, the less I feel like that. I’m just hanging out and like, it’d be real sweet if I could get some coffee and watch a band. Yeah. You know, just a party. You know, something that doesn’t have to be alcohol, but somehow alcohol got like super bound to music.

Eric: It’s a surprisingly good model for funding because it’s low overhead and it’s like an excuse to have a good time. Like, because I think a lot of people do need some sort of prop to like, like, I’m in character, right?

I’m in going out and having fun Eric Mose. So you hold on to a Bud Light that costs eight dollars. And you know, some of the bars give a percentage of that to the band. And then the band can afford to, you know, pay Ryan Cohen to record their, I mean, that’s literally how it used to work. And we’re finding new, you know, revenue streams to keep it going.

And I think artists will always be the most creative at making sure that it can keep going regardless of any sort of funding mechanism. Because we’re resilient and we’re like compulsive. We’re compelled to do this regardless of any sort of payout.

Jackie: Yeah, if we were in it for the money.

Eric: Oh, no, no, no. I quit my finance job. I don’t know what you’re talking about. Wait, what’s the numbers look like? What? Oh, no.

Jackie: Quarterly earnings all the blocks.

Eric: As per my last email.

Jackie: I love the color red. I thought that was a good thing.

Dan: It’s making me feel very reminiscent of 242 main underneath a more auditorium, right? That was like a city sponsored music venue. That was there was no bar, no alcohol, no drugs allowed in that space. It was the only all ages and it was the oldest all ages punk venue in the country. 35 years of running. And the fact that we had like, I grew up going there as a kid and that really helped me get into the music scene.

That was part of the reason like why I was able to play with a lot of kids that were older than me and get into the go wash those guys, get to Nectar’s when I got old enough, but they would still come to 242 main and play those punk shows. Both of those are gone. Yeah. And that was like such a special place. And in like, I hope Burlington or another town in our greater area will have a sponsor space like that again, because that’s how you develop the youth programming for kids getting into music. Because I can’t imagine now I’m not in touch with the youth right now.

I can’t imagine if I were to start over again, getting into drums, getting to bass, getting to guitar, where those kids I’m going to go find what is that venue that I can play as a 15 or 16 year olds downtown Burlington. I can’t name one not radio bean. Yeah. Right. They’re not doing those things anymore.

Becca: No, I think maybe community of sound has had some kids play. Yeah. And I know UVM does, but there’s a real divide. It’s weird when I hear about UVM beds, I’ve never like what?

They’re like, Oh, yeah, they only play at UVM. Yeah. Yeah.

Totally. I didn’t even do it existed, but there’s there’s definitely a weird bubble around UVM that we don’t play there. Once we become adults and stop going to UVM, it’s not like we’re playing at UVM. So definitely those weird barriers that they don’t need to exist.

Eric: They don’t need to be there. Yeah.

Becca: Right. Yeah. It used to exist. When I was a kid in my one of my bands, we were playing at like the American Legion.

Eric: I was like, sure. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And there’s a bunch of like 65 year old dudes that were like, oh, yeah, you got some great who cares. Yeah.

Becca: The good old boys were always hanging out. Yeah. Exactly. That was so interesting to me. It’s like, hate to get into the world, right? It’s not like I was hanging out at the Legion unless I was playing. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Yeah. So that’s how you meet interesting older people. There’s no reason that young people can’t talk to older musicians. They might learn stuff.

I love talking older musicians personally. The guys that have been doing it for like 45 years and are still out there doing it. That’s why they never stopped. They didn’t do it for the money. No. Not the quarterly bonus or what.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of reasons to play live music and not all of them are healthy, but some of them are healthy. You know what I mean? Like, and I think when you just have that desire, like it’s just going to, it’s never going to stop, you know, because it’s just a human behavior. You know, connection between other human beings.

Becca: I don’t like a wholesome way, too. There’s so many gross things we can do.

Eric: There are a lot. Yeah. Seemingly more these days than usual. So ready. Yeah. Just questionable moments. Why do we spend our time on this stuff? You know? We could be playing like punk shows with 13 people in the audience and it’s like the best thing you’ll do all day.

Becca: Slap and some art together. So extremely. Absolutely. We’re figuring out how to do this.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie: Art everywhere all the time.

Eric: All the time. Because we’re like part of our cool scene is that every four years a new crop of vines come into our town and like that sort of refreshment is awesome but it also breaks my heart that some of them don’t record.

Yes. Some of them don’t have t-shirts. It’s like they never happen. Which is cool and beautiful. But like I wish I had like some cool merch you know. Right. From these bands. That snapshot of that moment.

Jackie: Yeah that college band that was there for a year and a half.

Eric: Jackie and I were talking about like if there was a way we could do like a yearbook. Like a whole different idea.

Becca: I love that. Praying to music scene. Oh my God we should make a scene. Yeah.

Eric: I love this idea so much. Yeah. We need people to go to every single show and take pictures though. Right. We could have like Tim Lewis as the principal. He would be the principal of Rock and Roll High School in Burlington.

Becca: Oh well it’s adorable. I love this idea a lot honestly. Because it’s so hard to track. There’s so many bands. That’s it. They come in like a fireball and then you’re like wait.

Eric: They’re like we’re so good. One time. And they’re like oh we practice like three times and then broke up. Oh no. At least give me a voice memo recording you know.

Becca: Right. Bootlegging needs to come back. Yeah.

Eric: Actually not a bad. You know what we have played a couple of shows at Charlie O’s. And there’s a guy that brings like an epic like complicated setup and he like asks before and we’re like yeah sure whatever. And then you’re like busts out all these like field recording microphones.

Becca: Guys they have a bunch of like Zoom mics. Yeah totally like a whole contraption and we’re like cool. And he’s like you want to mute us and we’re like no we kind of suck tonight but thank you.

Throw it on the Internet. Yeah basically that’s what he said. He’s like why is it well. Yeah. Why not. Yeah. This is one of those random thoughts but have you heard of bootlegger’s beware that used to run out of big heavy world.

I feel like maybe. Ross. I’m going to forget Ross’s last name. I’m sorry Ross but that was exactly what he did.

And he has his own like podcast radio show that was literally like bootleg recordings from whenever. Yeah. Love that. So cool.

So cool. So yeah if you want to like like some shows just come ask the band maybe. I mean if you legitimately bootleg in what I say legitimately I mean you brought a recorder in your pocket. Yeah. And then put it on a cassette or whatever and it sounds like trash but you’re trying to sell it. That’s cool too.

Eric: Yeah you can absolutely do that for the leather bum books. All kinds of ways. I don’t think there’s a big market but you know what.

Becca: You do you. That would be so cool. If someone was like hey I got this.

Jackie: Well and that’s the thing like a bootleg tape. What that says is like there’s hype for the scene. There’s FOMO. There’s there was a show that I couldn’t make it to and I still want to hear that show that I couldn’t make it to. Just have to make it to as many shows as you can.

Becca: Yep. I love Brolin Town’s music. It’s a special little place because everyone complains about other cities and it’s funny you go to them and they’re like oh I see what’s going on.

Eric: I mean like what other place can you be in your like mid mid 40s still playing original indie rock and people come out to your shows. That’s insane. Like anywhere else you go like two hours south where I grew up in Western Mass all you’re going to get is a cover band if you’re lucky. You know and like those guys those cats will really rock and nobody will care. They’ll play one original. Right. So excited.

They work so hard on it and everyone will go out for a smoke. Right. You know what I mean. I don’t know this. They’re like yeah.

Where’s the black eyed bee. That’s what I want. You know like no offense for it. But like I guess I guess that’s like that’s that’s a scene too. But like I’m glad we aren’t only limited to that. Yes. Yes.

Becca: Individual creativity. Yeah.

Eric: We value that. We do.

Becca: That’s wrong with dancing and having fun at cover like cover bands were fun for the dancing for sure. But it’s not unique. I don’t know. I’ve heard a lot of Aerosmith covers.

Jackie: You just want a healthy ecosystem. Yes. Like you want a lot going on. You want diversity in what you’re able to. Yeah. And they’re going to get more diversity with original music than in covers. But covers are part of the diversity. I want it all.

Eric: For sure. Yeah. I want you to express yourself at the end of the day. That’s really what’s important. Right.

Becca: Yeah. I love when a band can take a cover and do something new with it. Those are why it’s so interesting to me. Oh wait. I know this song. But this is a little different.

Like this is unique and it catches you because you recognize the lyrics. So then you’re like, oh, yeah. Oh, this is. Okay. So I wanted to talk about June 6, which is at higher ground. What are you playing with at that one?

Jackie: Jesse Taylor Band is a headlining that show. Jesse Taylor Band is releasing an album the day before the show. So they’re going to be playing the new album. Which I’m just really excited about.

Eric: Currently out on tour right now. Yeah. For the first like New England tour. Did I see Portland?

Becca: Yeah. I think I saw a picture of Portland. That tracks. Awesome. Yeah.

Jackie: So it’s going to be us and Jesse Taylor Band and the eye traps.

Eric: I know. Right.

Becca: I might actually do this one. I didn’t realize it was you and the eye trap. No.

Jackie: It’s a really good bill. I love playing shows where I’m like, I would attend the show even if I wasn’t familiar. Do.

Becca: No, that’s that’s super cool. And Friday, is that Friday the 6th or is that a Saturday? Saturday the 6th. Saturday the 6th. Even better. You can relax all day and then come and chill out at your ground. That’s awesome. Go buy pre-sale tickets right now.

Yeah, that would really help. It’s what? Tuesday. It’s going to be Tuesday the second. Yeah. Go buy the pre-sale tickets now.

The pre-sale tickets really help the bands. I won’t go on a whole rant about this, but yeah, go do it. Pop in higher ground at night. Don’t pay the fees if you don’t want to. You can grab tickets at the location as long as they’re open, which I do that.

And I have been saved a lot and fees doing that. So, yeah, sell tickets people. Definitely. For any venue that doesn’t just go for a higher ground. Yeah. So it goes for radio being and probably any other venue. I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know. Who’s left?

Jackie: Yes. Musicians are. If you can buy them in advance, that’s excellent. Yes, absolutely.

Becca: Okay. Okay. So you guys have a playlist. I wanted to ask about the playlist. I don’t know if this is an individual project. It’s Jackie. It’s Jackie.

Eric: Jackie’s like she loves the Excel and the spreadsheets and like lists and orders of things. I love lists. And so this is like a musical list. Basically.

Jackie: Yeah. So it, um, it started, I guess the, like the philosophy behind it is that you can, um, be selfish and selfless at the same time. And if you can do both at the same time, it’s going to work out better than better than you can dream. So I started the playlist because I wanted leather bound books to be on a playlist with other bands that I thought were cool. I wanted to see our names next to each other. And I wanted other people to see our names next to each other so that they’d be like, Hey, these other names are cool.

Maybe the leather bound books are cool. We tricked them. And, uh, it mostly only worked on musicians at first where, uh, they noticed that I put them on a playlist and they were like, Hey, who’s adding us to playlists? Like that’s a big band thing and we’re like mid level small, like what’s happening? Um, and so, yeah, and it, that’s how it kind of shifted from, um, my desire for coolness association to being about how we need to celebrate how cool we all are.

Like, we all hang together. No one needs to be listening to top 40. No.

Yeah. Like, like I can only speak for Vermont, but no one in Vermont needs their favorite band to be someone who has millions of monthly listeners on Spotify. We have good enough music that your favorite band should be a local band.

Becca: And we have pretty much every single genre.

Jackie: Exactly. Like we have both. We have country. We have hip hop. Yeah. We have some insanely beautiful piano pop happening right now. Yeah. Um, it’s true. We just, we have it all. And I wanted it all to be on a playlist. And also I, because we have so many incredible artists in Vermont, I get overwhelmed and I forget who’s releasing music and what’s coming up next.

And this is a kind of a way of me like filing it like, Oh, like dog water put out. A new single. Good thing yesterday. It’s going on the playlist. Now I won’t forget. Like, Oh, mom, dad is coming out with a single on June 6th. It’s going right on the playlist. So I won’t forget. And hopefully it can serve as a resource beyond me so that other folks can see what we’ve got going on in the scene. I hope out of towners would look at the playlist and be like, who do I want to book a show?

Eric: Yeah. Right. We have had a lot of out of town bands come through and, um, you know, ask us to play or ask for recommendations of who they should play with. Yes.

Becca: The, the network thing around trying to book shows and just share something’s coming out. It’s, Facebook is not the way to do this. Instagram is not the way to do this. It’s not made for you to keep track of your friends. It’s, it’s truly not. It’s not social. It’s about selling you crap. So if you want to stay in touch with your friends, this, these kind of ideas, that’s it. Like this is a creative idea to try and keep it somewhat organized. Well, it’s hard.

Try, is someone trying to follow this scene? I’m like, I’m constantly going, I missed that show. I’m getting the event four days after the show is popping up on Facebook. Why?

Eric: I wanted to go. Jackie actually has started something to remedy that. Yeah.

Jackie: We’re going to Riley talked about this a little bit. She’s involved as well. We are working on a website to kind of host all of the, I want to know what’s going on in the Berlin to music scene right now. Kind of hub, right?

Becca: So that you can get off of social media. Yeah. Get off of social media, but still see what music’s being released, what shows are coming up, what bands are playing around. And I, I do also want to say, like when I got to Burlington, I definitely felt that there were cool kids, that there was kind of like an in group in the music scene. And I wasn’t part of it.

And I like, they would all talk about each other and promote each other. And I felt like I was on the outside of that. And I wanted to create my own niche.

Right. Like, but I don’t want to create my own in group. I want to make it more open. So I guess, like talking to the audience now, if anyone wants to be on this playlist, and you’re not on it, it’s just because there’s so much going on that I just don’t know about you yet. But I would love to know about you. Like, please message me. And like, it’s not about my friends and people I know and people I like. It’s about music that I think is excellent. A lot of music that I think is excellent happens to be made by people that I know and like, and are my friends, but I want to make friends. I am here to make friends.

Eric: The opposite of reality TV.

Jackie: Yeah. I am here to make friends. I want to hear new good music from people that I have no connection to. Yeah. I don’t want there to be this feeling of like, I wasn’t invited to this thing. Everyone is invited. I want to know about all the good music in Burlington. My head explodes.

Becca: Burma is clicky like that.

Eric: It’s a weird place to come into, even as someone who’s lived here forever.

Becca: This is all your little hub of people that if you, as soon as you start making friends, it just snowballs. I will say that. Yeah. As soon as you start making a friend, you’re like, wow, you know, 40 people who I now know and now I know 800 people. Exactly. So don’t be intimidated. Reach out.

Jackie: Reach out. Yeah. I just don’t want to accidentally create the thing that I felt when I got here. Just because I’ve been here longer. I want everyone in the music scene to feel like they can reach out. Yeah.

Eric: That’s not a zero sum game. There isn’t a limited amount of resources.

Jackie: You know, like promoting yourself on the internet feels awful, at least for me.

Eric: I don’t want to take a picture of my own face. I don’t want to come from that existential trend. Hear my own voice.

Jackie: Oh my God. I want to promote other people because that feels easy. Yeah. And if then they also feel that way, they’re going to end up promoting my band and I won’t have to.

Becca: Yeah. Right. You don’t get that embarrassment feeling.

Eric: I feel this so French. Yeah. I love my podcast. I hate social media. This is like this weird double-edged sword of I don’t want to put my face on the podcast. Yeah. Great. And the amount of people who are like, are you going to video me? I don’t want you videoing me. Yeah. Like I agree. Let’s not do that. But then some people are like, can I video? Yeah.

Jackie: I don’t know. I have not showered.

Eric: Listeners, I have not showered. Yeah, I’m just going to put it out there. You don’t want to see. You don’t want me to see. This gestures to himself.

Jackie: My bangs are going in 10 different directions. None of them are the direction I want them to go. This is not a, this is a face for radio. This is what podcasts are for.

Becca: Exactly. It’s just having a fun conversation with no, yeah, I don’t care. I honestly don’t. And I have those funny moments, too. Yeah.

Eric: Why do we do this?

Becca: I know. You have to do it over and over again. Yeah, it’s like a full-time job because it’s, they want you to pay them. If you’re a band trying to promote a show, they’re like, don’t you want to make it? Don’t you want to give us 50 bucks? Boost it.

Yeah, boost it. We’re not going to show it to anyone if you don’t pay. Yeah. So it’s just stressful things for broadcasters, musicians, artists, everybody. Everybody who’s not a rich person in the top 40, pushing it down your throat. Yep, exactly.

Jackie: That’s why if you know someone cool, doing cool things, you should post about them for them.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, buy their t-shirt, post it to tell your friends about them. Like that means a lot more than any Spotify listen, you know, it’s stuff out there.

Becca: Yeah. The name of the playlist, is it LBB Loves?

Jackie: Is that it? Yes, LBB Loves You. Because we do. We love you.

Becca: There’s a bunch of songs on there now, right?

Jackie: Yeah, it’s like three hours or like 80 tracks. I try not to repeat fans, but then sometimes they’ll release new music and they’ll end up being a couple tracks by the same person on there. I don’t curate it as much as I just like frantically add to it.

Becca: Hey, that’s how you do it. Yeah. Oh my gosh, trying to make playlists and curate them is stressful. How in every random song, I’m like, yeah, that one.

Jackie: I try to move like whatever, if there’s a gig that I’m playing that I’m promoting, I try to move some songs into the top four spaces for that. New releases, I try to move them higher up on the list. And I also use it to promote shows. Again, that Leatherbound Books is not a part of, but like if I’m going to a cool show, I love it if everyone came out and partied with me. So like, have you not heard of this touring band? Well, I added them to the playlist. Like they’re in the top four tracks.

Eric: Yeah, give them a listen.

Jackie: Yeah, give them a listen. Find out what’s happening in your town. Yeah.

Becca: So many interesting bands come through Burlington that I’ve never heard of before. And it’s funny talking to people who get stuck in the top 40 world who aren’t musicians. I feel like musicians very much don’t live in the top 40 world, but people outside of our bubble. They think bands don’t exist. They think like creativity doesn’t exist because they’re listening to whatever’s playing on triple X. Yeah.

Actually, that’s just like this weird marketed, curated, capitalistic, weird bubble of uncreative recycled ideas that just keep coming back at you. But if you get outside of that at local bands, the easiest place to start, right? Not only can you just go out and watch them, you can sit and talk to us. Yeah. Come sit and talk to the Leatherbound Books.

Eric: Probably be awkward, but.

Jackie: Well, and it’s also like the misunderstanding of how the music industry works. The cream doesn’t rise to the top. This is not a meritocracy. The best songwriters currently writing songs today will never be famous.

Yes. Like your local bands in your town who are quote unquote not doing well. It’s not because the music isn’t good. Yeah. The music is good. If you’re ignoring them because you’re waiting for them to make it, you’re going to wait a long time and you’re never going to hear the coolest shit that’s happening in your town.

Becca: Yes. And it’s crazy because even names that are big, like I think of a shaky graves as one. And I use him as an example because shaky’s funny because he’s like super Americana and people love him.

He sells out shows at the Shelburne Museum like regularly. They don’t play him on the radio. He doesn’t fit the bubble, right? He’s not in their marketing scheme. So he gets ignored, but he’s obviously fantastic. And once you hear about him, you love him. Oh, well, maybe there’s thousands of bands that you haven’t heard of. You might be totally blown away by the creativity and it’s so unique. Like your weird niche hobby that you love. There’s probably a band devoted to the word.

Dan: 100%.

Becca: Magic the Gathering. I don’t even know, but I guarantee there are probably multiple magic the Gathering bands or whatever you read into. That’s it.

Jackie: Just go explore a little bit. Yeah. If you’re waiting for someone to tell you about your next favorite band, I’m here and I’ve told you. Yes. It’s on my playlist. Go listen to my playlist. You need an authority figure to give you permission to like cool things.

Eric: Jackie, cool older sister Jackie.

Jackie: Cool older sister Jackie says your next favorite band is on the LBB loves you playlist.

Becca: So important. So, okay, this is very unrelated to everything, but I read a crazy statistic that most people stop listening to new music by the time they turn 30. And I was so horrified because I felt like that. And then I broke out of it and just the amount of new music I’ve listened to since I’m 30. Probably more than when my 20s, honestly, I was like, I rejected that for myself and I’m like, no, I’m going to continue finding new music.

But it’s weird how I was falling into that trap without realizing it. Go find new stuff. Don’t be boring. Don’t listen to the same stuff you listen to in high school forever. Yeah, go find new things.

Jackie: The people, the other people who like the same things that you liked in high school are making music. You’re going to like it. They’re influenced by all of your same favorite like bands that you love growing up. And now the music is growing up too. Like, yeah, it’s happening.

Becca: Yes, you just have to go actually find it. You’re not going to get spoon fed it. It’s true.

Jackie: And I feel like as someone in my 30s, I’m definitely more emotionally regulated now than I was at 15. When I was 15, I needed music to help me be emotionally regulated. So thank you to all of the music that I listened to.

Eric: Thank you to all the music I listened to when I was 15. I don’t use music the same now as I did when I was 15. I think that’s part of like why you stop listening to music. Yeah. No, I feel that. I don’t need it to emotionally regulate me anymore.

I can do that myself. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a bunch of cool music to listen to. But be emotionally regulated and listen to music. Yeah, maybe emotionally resonant.

Jackie: Yes, resonant. And it’s like a audio term.

Eric: Indeed. Resonance. See what I did there? Yeah, it’s like a pun. Hmm. Hmm. Circle.

Dan: Between the three of us, we cover like the full spectrum of the millennials. Like literally the full spectrum, like on the tall end and then at the end of it as well. And between the three of us, we all have listened and gripped a very similar music within these decades. And then like thinking about the music and the musicians growing up with that music, it feels, for me, it feels like really nostalgic that we’re playing a lot of these inspirational genres that I love listening to all the time, like raging against the machine.

I was blasting that in middle school all the time. And when we get to do those heavy riffs with the band, we then keep evolving those things. And it comes like full circle where it feels like super youthful still, but it’s still emotionally connected as an adult. So it’s like, the music still feels in touch with me and it keeps making it more special. And it’s so awesome. I feel like it’s a privilege that we do get to cover such a wide spectrum, but it’s also so relatable.

Like that’s such an interest. And we were just joking on our way over here. Like we have the 90s station wagon, like Joe, the line in our band bio. I currently drive like a really beat like early 2010 Subaru Outback. So we’re thinking like, oh yeah, I think, I think the decades grow with us as well. Like maybe it’s now an early 2010s like the Outback.

Jackie: So taking a ride in the back of a station wagon. Now it’s from the 2010s.

Dan: Same idea. We’re just getting a little further down the line. Yeah. Yeah.

Becca: That is super accurate because it is. It’s super youthful music and you’re not constrained. That’s, I feel like Indie Rock is a term that I don’t love because Indie Rock is not about a genre so much as like you’re independent as a band. It was really where I was supposed to start. Because it doesn’t cleanly define what you sound like. No. And you sound like so many different things.

Jackie: It’s a word that you say when you don’t know what other words to say.

Dan: It’s a total catch on. Well, it used to be more something in the bio.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Indie. I need to say some genre. I think Indie to me meant like Ani DeFranco who started her own record company because she couldn’t get anyone to put out her record.

Or if she did, she didn’t like the deal and was like, fuck that. I’m going to put out my own record. Yeah. And that’s obviously what we’ve been talking about.

Becca: What a 90’s Queen reference.

Eric: Oh, I know, right? Love it. Yeah. I’m pretty cool. Like Ani DeFranco is, you know, it’s my up to date reference of Ani DeFranco. Oh, yeah. But yeah, we grew up, I grew up listening to that stuff.

And I also kind of couldn’t find my place in a punk scene, you know, and I couldn’t find myself in the scotch scene or the rock or any of that stuff. So like as like a catch all as it’s been, we are kind of truly doing this. And it’s kind of, it’s not hard to put us on a bill, but like we’re not this and we’re not that.

And, and like in the 90s growing up, that is what happened. Like, what are you going to put like cake with, right? You know, or cherry popping daddy’s, squirrel nut zippers. Like, do you put them with like metal bands, you know, like sometimes they did or like the totes and stuff. Like, are they metal? No. Are they punk? No. Like, are they grunge? Also, no. You know, so like, what do you do? Like, I don’t know. You like the tunes? Like maybe you’ll like these tunes, I guess, you know.

Jackie: And that’s another element of the, of the playlist and the scene, which is that like, it’s all just good. It’s just like, if it’s good, it’s good. You know, put it all in one night. Yeah. You’re a pair.

Eric: Definitely.

Becca: I like it all. It doesn’t have to fit some specific bowl. Right.

Eric: But it also doesn’t have to be genre less. You know, like you can put a bill together that hangs. They don’t have to be the same genres, but if they hang, they hang. Yeah. You know?

Becca: Yeah, definitely. Most indie bands, I feel the like individual track genres way more than the band genre. Yeah. You’ll have a heavy song. You’re like, wow, that felt like grungy. That was really, that was something rocky. Yeah. But then it’s really pretty.

Eric: Like, if you do coastlines, it’s really pretty.

Becca: Well, that’s because we don’t do albums anymore. Like we don’t listen to a 10 song album in order as the band intended. We put it on a playlist or you put out a single and then you wait six months and put on another single. Yeah. And I mean, that is for better or worse how you do it these days. Oh yeah. Or you just keep putting out the same album.

Eric: You could do that and make people pay more and more and more for it for like changing one thing on it, which we’re going to do next time. We’re going to have 12 different editions. Genius.

Jackie: Wait, let me write this down. Spark to the gold.

Eric: Don’t sue us, Taylor. Please no. I don’t even know a lawyer. Any lawyers, reach out. Please.

Becca: Okay. I think we’ve been talking for probably an hour. Yeah. Yeah. Later band an hour. Is there anything we didn’t cover that we should cover? Besides, we’re going to replug your show in a minute.

Jackie: Dan has another amazing music project.

Dan: He sure does. Electric trolley company. And this is, it’s a nice throwback to for folks that don’t know, historically Burlington, the greater area we had an electric trolley system 100 years ago for public transit. So in a fun way, it’s like, you know, a little homage to the electric trolley system and also bringing awareness back to that system that we had.

And it’s something I’d love to see in the future, but also power true as well. Also what feels genre fluid. And it’s one of those things that like I love playing with Eric and Jackie, but like I love diversifying even more with other trios or other people that keeps going. We kind of go back to that experience circle when you’re playing with folks that are older than you or younger or like people that want to do just different genres. And that whole community effect where I’m like, okay, I’m going to play with electric trolley company, do these jams. Maybe I’ll bring that style to the leather round books and see how that goes. So it’s really fun jamming with those guys as well. Hopefully more shows coming up in the summer, but I’ll be plenty busy with leather bound books this summer. Ecosystem. Yeah. Capital C in the community. Bingo.

Becca: What’s up? Do you guys have social media or anything?

Dan: With electric trolley company, we do. We’re on the socials. I don’t see them. I’m not social media. Yeah. But we are out there. Yes.

Jackie: They’re on Instagram. If you look for an electric trolley company and you find a band instead of like a company for electric trolley.

Eric: Yes. You get a good literature. Yeah. You can get a ride on an electric trolley.

Dan: You Google what you Google and you get what you get.

Becca: I didn’t know about that trolley. Now that you mentioned it, I forgot that that got ripped out.

Eric: It sure did. They like burned it in a like a hedonistic ceremony.

Becca: That’s not so accurate for voting.

Eric: They’re voting against their best interests. It’s so metal.

Jackie: Yeah, it really was. But Dan’s going to bring it back with the power of music. Oh my God.

Becca: Yeah. Infrastructure or rock. Electric trolley. Get the dome going over Winooski.

Eric: Yes. Everyone wants that.

Dan: Yeah. Where’s my Winooski dome? Yeah.

Jackie: Love that. Oh my God. What an amazing bill. Yes.

Becca: Awesome. Awesome. Any other topics? That’s it. No, that’s it. That’s really fun. Awesome. Okay. Soon to be album in October. Keep an eye on the playlist.

Jackie: I think it’s on Spotify, right? Yes. If anyone has any suggestions for how I could get it onto anything other than Spotify, I would love that so much.

Becca: I might be able to help you out with something. I’ve been scraping Spotify for people. Yes. I’d love that. Yes. But it is called LBB Loves You. And it’s adorable. Go check out this playlist. Love it. Check out the Leatherbound Books on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Bandcamp, all the Leatherbound Books with the the. Don’t forget the the. And your show, June 6th, Saturday, a higher ground. Go buy a free sale ticket.

Go watch the show. I’m assuming it’s like 7.30? Yeah.

7.30 doors. Yeah. Awesome.

Yeah. So thank you guys so much for having us. Thanks for having us. This is lovely.

Love this band. Okay. Thank you all for listening and have a great day everybody. Bye.

Love you. Thanks so much for listening to the end of the show. Subscribe to Vermont Talks on your favorite podcasting platform. You can find me on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all over the web. Contact Becca at VermontTalks.com if you’d like to be interviewed or if you know someone who should be. Thanks so much to Jason Baker for creating the show music. The views and opinions expressed by the guests are those of the individuals and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Vermont Talks. Any content or statements provided by our guest are of their opinion and are not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual, anyone, or anything. And that’s what was new in the 802. Have a great day.